Talk:SeaMonkey:Home Page
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| Resources | ||
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| SeaMonkey Homepage | ||
| FAQ / Help | ||
| Goals | ||
| Organization | ||
| QA | ||
| Supporters | ||
| Add-ons | ||
| Localization | ||
| Reasons | ||
| Branding | ||
| Release History | ||
| Tasks & Projects | ||
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| Discussion | ||
| Suiterunner |
Before Anything Else:
STOP:
- First, this page is a mess, please can a Wiki expert port all this to seperate organised pages
- A lead Designer and team must be chosen to deal with naming and the thesis behind it. Designer's know that you should never ever let a programmer make all the decisions about an interface - that's why we get things like NS8. If the product name ends up being decided by a vote based on a shortlist of suggested ideas from users, I shall shoot myself. All products should have a name chosen from a thesis thought out by a project designer, based on suggestions from the community.
- A Wiki Manager should be assigned to control this mess.
Kroc Camen
Difference between this effort and Mozilla2
- Could someone tell me the difference between this effort and Mozilla2?
Well, there no relation :-) Mozilla2 is about making major change in the Core (the low level part shared between all mozilla.org applications) to support new advanced functions. Between two release of an application, it's difficult to make such change, that involve a significant risk of unstability. OTOH not doing that means the evolution of the soft is impaired, and it will keep forever some code whose shortcomings are well known, and that at the end more time has been spent correcting that would have been needed to write again better.
The Seamonkey effort is about continuing to release new versions of the mozilla suite application, the original mozilla, that is in danger of dying in favor of Firefox and Thunderbird. Initially FF/TB were just separating the navigation/mail code from the whole of the suite, but they have now evolved in their own direction that not every user of the suite likes.
From Kroc Camen:
- Mozilla2
- The software that lays out the pages you see in Firefox and SeaMonkey is known as Gecko. Both Firefox and Seamonkey are User Interfaces that use Gecko to display web pages. Gecko was originally called "Mozilla" when it was developed by Netscape. The Mozilla Foundation was spun off of Netscape to maintain the Mozilla engine (Gecko). This engine has been progressing constantly and is almost at version 1.8. Therefore "Mozilla2" refers to plans for what to include when Gecko reaches the big 2.0 version number. Remember that Gecko is not an Internet browser like Firefox, it is the technology that displays web pages which other programs use.
- "Mozilla Suite" / "Seamonkey"
- Seamonkey is the code name for the web browser known as "Mozilla Suite", it uses the Gecko engine to display webpages and has, since it's inception followed the progress of Gecko very closely meaning that SeaMonkey version numbers are identical to Gecko version numbers, e.g. SeaMonkey1.7 uses Gecko1.7 to display web pages.
Even though SeaMonkey will not have an official 1.8 Release, the gecko engine will continue towards version 2 and this does not affect the SeaMonkey web browser.
Idea about the best way to do new Seamonkey releases
I have some idea about the best way to do new Seamonkey releases. See my user page for that jmdesp
If would like to know if other people share my view, and if they approve including this plan on the Seamonkey effort pages.
- It makes sense to me to build off the same branch that FF and TB use. I would also suggest that a release candidate 1 build be built from the branch as soon as possible after the branch. Further release candidates would be created off the branch until one of the candidates is deemed the final release. These release candidates would help get testing from the widest base of users possible. Schapel 09:20, 11 Mar 2005 (PST)
- I can't remember how this works. I recall back when Fx was called Phoenix, it was cut from a Seamonkey branch, and picked up changes from there. Now it seems to use the Aviary branch only.
- Probably the best thing to do from the standpoint of MoFo would be to strictly divide things -- for example, the core rendering/netlib/security be developed as a core, Fx and Tb as user interfaces, and Seamonkey as another UI.
- Barring that, beg borrow and steal. Of course, I really don't know much about how things are made, honestly. --irixman
Question - FF & TB under SM?
If the seperated Thunderbird and Firefox are going to be the focus from Mozilla now, and (IMHO) most Seamonkey (Browser Suite) users use the brower/mail over other Suite features in general, than why can't an "official" bridge be made for a unified interface to the 2 seperate apps? This would allow a seamless transisition between mail and browser, a standardized install routine, and insure no overlap of features for expediant processing and coding. Maybe call it the "ThunderFox Shell"? Justa' wonderin'...
MRK
- This is not the goal of this project. The goal is not only to have a single application for mail and browser. The goal is to have the whole look and feel including all the advantages of the (in my opinion more advanced) GUI in the suite and "backport" the few advantages that Firefox and Thunderbird have to the "new suite", but don't add the disadvantages of the two single applications. -- Mreimer 00:33, 10 Mar 2005 (PST)
Mreimer, what are these disadvantages of the stand alone FF/TB apps? Just curious. -DrSeuss
- To name only a few of them: - I don't like to install several apps (I don't like the concept of creating several applications out of something that fits great in a suite at all) - I don't like the "simplified" interface of Firefox and Thunderbird - Firefox and Thunderbird don't work together as good as mozilla mail and mozilla navigator in the suite (firefox deals with tb as good as with every "foreign" mailer) - I don't have Composer and Chat if I use just the single applications -- Mreimer 09:13, 10 Mar 2005 (PST)
- FF&TB also missing some features that are used in companies. Also, the PasswordManager, DownloadManager aren't like some peoples it want ... only to add some points to the list. -- Opi 09:39, 10 Mar 2005 (PST)
- Advantages of SM to FF/TB IMHO is that you have one application (SM) for differend needs (Mail, Browser, Chat, (maybe Calender if you want). Than you have one Perference Menu for all Parts of the Programm. An about:config for both Mail/Browser in one Programm. Only one installation of Extensions that will fit Browser/Mail. And (important for multiple installations) one patch fit Browser/Mail instead of 2 independent Patch-Installations for 2 Programms (like TB/FF). -- Tomcat 13:40, 10 Mar 2005 (PST)
- One I just learned about, something I use all the time: right click on a link in mail, select "open in new tab." Apparently you can't do that with FF&TB L2
- This is completely possible within the Firefox/Thunderbird framework. Open the Options window, move to the Advanced panel, and look at the tabbed browsing options. Change the 'Open links from other applications in' setting to 'A new tab in the most recent window'. Sure, you can't make this Thunderbird-specific, but I'd have to question why in the world you'd want to make it application-specific. --Waldo 21:15, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
Idea: Mozilla users base contributions on offical 1.8 release?
Consider this a product of brainstorming - it may be worth something or just junk. You can decide if it's worth keeping or if it's just nothing.
I noticed that there is a donation page at mozilla.org ([1]). What if users offered to contribute to mozilla.org only if their contribution went towards further develpment on mozilla seamonkey (or at least an official mozilla release of 1.8)? That might persuade mozilla.org to at least release a 1.8 version.
You've probably seen this already: [2]
"# The Mozilla Foundation will provide infrastructure for those interested in working on the 1.7.x releases, which we expect will include a number of vendors who provide these products to their customers. We've committed to support the 1.7 branch some time ago. If we ship 1.8 we'll need to support that as well, and we just can't manage supporting that many versions as well as Firefox and Thunderbird releases."
What I don't understand is why don't they just finish 1.8, and support THAT version (and stop support on 1.7x). They wouldn't be supporting two versions of seamonkey, and vendors would be getting support for an updated improved version.
Dean
- From my glance at the FTP site, we are on 1.7rc3. 1.8 just went into beta1. If MoFo wants to release 1.8, it would mean having a full beta process with feature freezes, release candidates, and a generally long process. It would also mean throwing away all the work done to make 1.7 a stable product, and starting it over on 1.8. MoFo probably wants to get seamonkey out the door and stop any new development. -- Owen
- Mozilla is on 1.7.5 and 1.7.6 will released in the next weeks. For 1.8 there exists a 1.8b1 and a 1.8b2 will also released in the end of the month. -- Opi 09:00, 11 Mar 2005 (PST)
- I manage the donations@mozilla.org address. It has been suggested many times that donations could be earmarked for a specific project (including by me) but MoFo has always rejected the idea. They are concerned that high profile projects (e.g. Firefox) may get all the funding to the detriment of equally important projects (e.g. Bugzilla). At the end of the day we get so many donations they wouldn't notice if a (probably) small number of people insisted they wanted to donate for SeaMonkey only. -- irongut
Product Name
There has been talk of not using the gecko versioning for suite and possibly rebranding it under a new name (Seabird, Seawolf). Thoughts?
Please, I beg you all, pick a different name. SeaMonkey was the code name for Netscape 6.0 -- you all hated that one, right? Why do you want to perpetuate its name? -dveditz
Will we be allowed to use the "Mozilla" name? If so, I'd prefer sticking with Mozilla Application Suite or revising it to Mozilla Internet Suite. -- Schapel 10:21, 11 Mar 2005 (PST)
Proposition to move discussion
Why don't we create a new talk page, something like Talk:SeaMonkey:Naming to hold this discussion? -- Irixman 10:17, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
- I don`t think it`s the right time for a naming discussion. IMHO we should first clear the Situation, build the Team and the "Team-Structure" and than we could discuss about a Name :-) -- Tomcat 12:02, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
- I'd have to agree with Tomcat. Besides which, I really have no qualm with the SeaMonkey moniker.
- However, I do agree that this place is getting a little cluttered. This Wiki interface doesn't appear to be very well structured for holding threaded discussions. As such, per Irixman and Johann's suggestions, all discussion would likely benefit greatly by remaining in the Seamonkey Forums over on MozillaZine. - Scarrow
Branding Restrictions
Naming the project is mentioned in the transition plan. [emph added]
- We probably won't use the same naming conventions, as we need to be clear that this is not a Mozilla Foundation product release.
- [...]
- There will undoubtedly be some implementation details to be worked out (e.g., can we actually use Seamonkey as a formal trademark [...]
This seems to rule out a name that coordinates with other Mozilla products. This may also mean no Seamonkey. -- irixman
- To add to the Name discussion, Something like *zilla can't be used. The zilla thing is trademarked by someone else. He gaved Mozilla the ok to use the name but als mentioned, that they won't no new *zilla products. Also please do not spam this wiki discussion and please think about something else as the name yet. We firstly need a core team and spokesperson. We will let you informed, how you can help the X Suite product, besides of the normal bugzilla help, testing nightlies and so on.
- And for information please don't change the comment order, use : to move your text a bit to left if you comment a comment (or use more : do move more left). And sign every comment with -- ~~~~ (2 minus and 4 tildes) on the end. So all will be more readable. -- Opi 09:02, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
Ana
Noone has done this yet, but different from animal-like or Mozilla-related names, I recommend Turkish word ana (pronounced /un-ah/) for the new application. (Ana as brand name with capital a.) This is the word I've been using to distinguish Firefox, Thunderbird and the main application, Mozilla Suite, who gave birth to Firefox and Thunderbird. Ana means mother (who gives birth), base, main, origin, core, essential. I think Ana is able to reflect what lies behind Mozilla Suite. It is also easy to remember. Asteko
The Teleport Suite
I suggest naming our new internet suite "The Teleport Suite", and for the slogan: "Browse at the speed of thought". Seamonkey is a little old-fashioned, and if we start inventing combinations of animals, we will still be associated to the Mozilla Foundation... I also think we have to re-design all icons. I can help you doing it. I have created a logo already:
Options
Choosing a single, strong name make promotion easier, but it also affects the internal discussions. What you call something affects how you think about it.
"The Suite" is not unique, a PC could have three or four suites on it.
The name seamonkey does not have a serious connotation see: [3]
We have choices of what kind of name do we want.
Make it coordinate with other Mozilla products: Seawolf Windhawk
Make it a derivative of the original: Dragon Wyvern Netzilla Dragonfly
Make it some other animal: Otter Hammerhead Wizard
Make it function related: Internet Suite (IS) Internet Master (IM)
Make it more abstract like Asteko's suggestion: Ana
The first three have the advantage of including a more or less ready made mascot/logo, and give a more concrete label. L Squared
Some thoughts that I saw (on mozillazine??) are to relate this to the OO.o project. They're making the office application suite, and seamonkey has always been known as the internet suite. I believe it's a necessity to demonstrate the 'power' of the application, as the suite of tools and the underlying framework that's extensible. Maybe an Acronym?
OIT (Open Internet Toolbox) GIT (Gecko Internet Toolbox/Toolkit)
How about a play on the iPod: iNet! (silly, but it may spur someone else on to something better)
Some other comments say that the suite is for the Uber-Geeks...maybe we should capitalize on that? Let Fx go for the noob's ;) larrybpsu
Be careful
Abstract is all good and well, but we have to keep in mind that this international community employs numerous tongues. What may well sound good in one language may turn sour in another. For instance, the above suggestion of Ana, while perhaps ripe with benevolent connotations in Turkish, on the other hand, simply means hole, in Japanese. Which of course, would not be auspicious.
- Scarrow
Some names
WebMoz
OpenMoz
Webilla (Web+illa from mozilla)
Openzilla
--Vd 17:46, 11 Mar 2005 (PST)
or Suitemoz
-- Tomcat 06:37, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
SeaWolf
-- HJ Sunday, March 13, 2005 at 9:20:48 AM PST
WebZilla
Just my small idea similar to one above... "WebZilla" Not much different...short and suite...
-- Rickkins
Rules for names - Before we get stuck into a trap...
Remember the hassle about the name "Firebird"? We should avoid that this happens again. Therefore we should make some background-rules before:
- The name shouldn't be in use by another software
- The name shouldn't sound as another known name or trademark (therefor also no "Mozi**"-names)
- If a name gets more as 1000 hits on google, forget it
--xwolf 03:39, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
I disagree with the point 2, on the Mozilla Trademark Policy they encourage the name of community editions to localized protects, and also allows the use of the Moz prefix to related projects. We could blend this and use the name:
MozCommunity Suite
--Dahem0n 10:27, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
Another idea on gettng names
On some other OS-projects I am working on, I found out, that all good names in common language are used already. Also all names of historic character (like from the greeks and so on). I found 2 good sources for names:
- http://www.pantheon.org/ - Ther you can dig in the names in the mythology of many cultures. There are a lot of possibilities. E.g. in the australian mythology... You only habe to search...
- Sindarin - You know "Lord of the Rings"? The elbian language that was defined by Tolkien is a source also for good-sounding names. In german we got a web-portal http://www.sindarin.de - Using Sindarin could help to use the same name like before, but in an not obviously language :)
--xwolf 03:45, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
engine suite
I think it vill be good and uzer friendly name "Use engine suite, advance your iPerformance"
mSuite
Why not use something simple like "mSuite" or similar ?
voting
Perhaps we could collect some names here and I could temporarly host a voting system as soon as we haven enough names. Then everyone could vote for the name he likes best.
Seamonkey Project - Proposed Alternative Name Archive
In an effort to unify the tangled name gathering process, a thread has been opened for proposing suggestions in a cohesive, organized fashion, over on Mozillazine.
Seamonkey Project - Proposed Alternative Name Archive
The list will eventually be moved here to its own page, for perusal and consideration by those who will be steering the project.
Please come and contribute your ideas. Thank you.
- - Scarrow
Product Version
MoFo has made it clear that it we can not use v1.8. They want to make sure that the users see no connection between Mozilla and the Seamonkey. Versioning Seamonkey to 1.8 may confuse users into thinking that it's the next version of Mozilla, and thus supported by MoFo.
Now we are an INDEPENDENT project - MoFo can't say us nothink! When Phoenix was renamed to Firebird, and Firebird to Firefox the versioning system wasn't changed, so it were an compleatly bad idea that we should begin from null (version 1.0). We should make a version 1.8 or 2.0, but i think 2.0 should be a version based on the tollkit and etc. ;) --Adrianer
- But remember, MoFo is providing us with lots of resources, including Bugzilla, Tinderbox, and lots of internals. Personally, I don't think we should try to anger them! See my post about their naming rules. Our best bet is probably a new, unique name at a version 1.0 release --irixman
I think that there are 2 possibilities: 1. 2.0 (Kind of a Next Generation), because there already has been a 1.0+ Suite or 2.) v1.0 because of a "new" Suite from a new Team. -- Tomcat 06:34, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
While Seamonkey will be a independent project, it will still rely on the tools and services provided by MoFo (Tinderbox, Bonsai, Bugzilla, server space, etc). One can assume that if Seamonkey chose v1.8 for the release version, MoFo would feel less eager to provide us with those tools and services.
"MoFo has made it clear that it we can not use v1.8."
- Can you cite evidence for this? In my opinion, 1.8 is the most obvious and appropriate version number - it is after all the same program. I think the facts that the name isn't "Mozilla" and that it's not mentioned on Mozilla 1.x's product page will prevent any confusion. --Greg K Nicholson 13:57, 13 Mar 2005 (PST)
Suggestions
- 2.0 -- but i think it is better for a version based on toolkit and with much more changes as this version
- 1.8.0, 1.8.sea, 10.1.8 etc -- Too close to 1.8 for MoFo?
- 1.0 -- Makes it feel like Seamonkey is a baby, which it isn't. However, we can do version step ups at a higher rate, and eventually match Gecko's version when it hits 2.0.
- 0.9 -- Makes it feel like Seamonkey isn't even stable
- Friendly Name -- Like MacOS/Microsoft does (Tiger, Longhorn, XP, NT, etc). ie. "Seamonkey Internet Suite: Rebellion". Then, in later releases, we could start matching gecko versions again (once it's clear that Seamonkey isn't supported by MoFo. ie "Seamonkey 1.10" w/Gecko 1.10, "Seamonkey 1.11" w/Gecko 1.11, "Seamonkey 2.0" w/Gecko 2.0.
This issue points to why we need to deal with the label up front as well. Apparently MoFo won't go along with any 1.8 release. If we are to get the next version out soon, we need to agree on what to call it. I suspect that version 1.0 will probably be our best option, and agree with 2.0 being the toolkit version. L2
L2, I agree. I think we need a new name and a 1.0 release. --irixman
I agree a 1.0 release is the best option. The upgrade version can get a 0.8 advance towards our version 2.0, making it 1.8. dahem0n
Idea: why not have (sticky) discussion threads or a forum over at MZ?
I would assume that this sparks a lot of discussion and there will be many who want to help or have good ideas. We need some discussion forum to avoid basic ressources get crammed with comments and to make it easy for potential contributors to find their way.
So I wonder whether somebody with good ties to the Gods of Mozillazine could motivate them to create new forums for discussing this? Another solution would be mailinglists or newsgroups (or both) but with these there seems to be an increased spam problem. -- johann_p 14:43, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
The big problem with Mozillazine is the signal to noise ratio. L2
Pedant Warning! :-) You want a high signal to noise ratio = S/N
This is true. We could use the npm.seamonkey group, but it seems to also have a high S/N ratio. I think it is very important that all efforts be coordinated at one easy place. Some threaded discussion would be the best. --irixman
I just would like to remark that the S/N ratio here is already falling: if there is no pointer here that we can provide for people to contribute ideas, make rants etc. I fear the Wiki will drown in noise. I'd rather have the noise somewhere else. -- johann_p 14:43, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
Perhaps we should create more places in the Wiki to post these type things. For instance, a naming discussion page, and a page to discuss new ideas, a place to discuss the core, etc. You are right though; and I am surely contributing to it now ;-) --irixman
- The problem with employing this wiki for discussion, with all its arcane formatting conventions and lack of outright, proper delineations between comments, makes for a very cluttered interface. So I don't agree with simply creating more wiki pages. I don't like useing a wiki for carrying on discussions. It isn't geared for it. In many cases, individuals will neglect to either indent their comments, apply proper headers or leave their signature, in which case, everything begins to bleed into a single, senseless, mass of text.
- We already have Seamonkey Forums over on MozillaZine, why not use them? - Scarrow
Resource Needs
I would suggest that we need two more resource pages here.
One, an organization chart, with who to go to, who will be reviewing what, and I don't know what else.
Second, a chrome debugger's tutorial.
It could include:
1 Preparation - what you need to know, and where to get it.
2 Bugzilla proceedures
3 Source access and navigating (check out?)
4 Proceedures and Tools for Editing
5 Proceedures for Debugging
??? tinderbox, check-ins ??? what-ever
It seems we have a lot of volunteers like myself who are technically competent but proceedurally ignorant. If those in the know want our help, you'll need to show us how. L2
- As there are no changes with the resources yet all old information also applies to the new product we will form. so all infos you need to get the source, compile, and test is found on http://www.mozilla.org/developer/ ... more will come in time. -- Opi 08:36, 12 Mar 2005 (PST)
The other thing it would be nice to have is an explanation of where to go to volunteer. I couldn't find any kind of e-mail addy on the page and I couldn't even figure out how to open a new thread in the discussion to ask.
Like the OP I'm technically competent (in some areas) but procedurally ignorant.
--RC
- There's an explanation of what needs to be done in "The Plan" section. If you don't know how to use Bugzilla, hang out on one of the developer IRC channels. Maybe it would be a good idea to arrange some "bug days", a day of the week specifically set aside for helping new members get up to speed with Bugzilla work. -- Schapel 05:39, 14 Mar 2005 (PST)
Being a Netscape user from Day ONE --
I much prefer Mozilla to either Firefox or Thunderbird, the latter is particularly annoying in its habits, or lack thereof.
The integration of the browser with mail is SO valuable to most people, it would be a huge tactical mistake to dump it -- no better than stupid IE =/- OE (usually minus).
SO YOU GUYS NEED TO STAY SERIOUS ABOUT KEEPING MOZILLA GOING.
I couldn't see much major changes between 1.7x and 1.8x, but all improvements are good.
I just want to keep you ALL focussed on the vision -- integrated Mozilla is 100 times better than ANYTHING else on the market -- which includes Firefox and Thunderbird.
Let me know if I can help
MOZILLA MUST STAY ALIVE !!!!
Being a Netscape user from Day ONE --
I much prefer Mozilla to either Firefox or Thunderbird, the latter is particularly annoying in its habits, or lack thereof.
The integration of the browser with mail is SO valuable to most people, it would be a huge tactical mistake to dump it -- no better than stupid IE =/- OE (usually minus).
SO YOU GUYS NEED TO STAY SERIOUS ABOUT KEEPING MOZILLA GOING.
I couldn't see much major changes between 1.7x and 1.8x, but all improvements are good.
I just want to keep you ALL focussed on the vision -- integrated Mozilla is 100 times better than ANYTHING else on the market -- which includes Firefox and Thunderbird.
Let me know if I can help (sorry, I did not mean to attach this to the bottom of prior comment -- a mistake.)